Out of Control Pricing of Second Hand Models

[Jazajia]

These greedy sellers clearly don't know how an auction works. If I ever sell any models, I list them at the price I paid for them, sometimes a little less. That encourages buyers to bid in the hope of getting their model at a sensible price and I only need one bid to recover my costs! A couple of years ago I listed an Aeroclassics United Airlines Caravelle for £19.95 (approx $25 US) and it sold for a crazy $428 .US. That was my reward for listing at a sensible starting price, but if I listed it at $200, I would get no bids. Let that be a lesson to those greedy sellers!

This is an example af what I'm a talking about - a seller selling at probably the prices he paid for them and see how this attracts bids .

| eBay

Hope he does well for buyers and as a seller!

This is an excellent example of what I also think Adrian. We all have seen those models that go for $400 on eBay, I think some sellers either mistakenly think that they can get rich by selling all their sold-out models at those prices, or some might have been frustrated after being on the other side of the fence many times and want to turn - force - things in their favor.

I have often stated when I talk about my beginnings in the hobby, how bitter of an experience it was to find that most Viasa models I wanted were the subjects of insane bidding wars on eBay (and these were healthy bidding wars, with low starting prices). So when Aeroclassics released YV-134C and YV-137C about ten years ago I remember my evil side took over and I said "aha! not gonna happen to me again!" and I bought three examples of YV-137C with the initial intention of eventually getting some money out of them. But in the end, my good side won and I ended up giving away the two extra models to two very good friends (another collector from Venezuela, and the flight instructor that got through me my PPL course. The latter wasn't a collector, but I think he understood that the model represented how much I appreciated his help in getting my PPL).

I have two copies of YV-135C, and I'd get another one if I could find one at a sensible price. The same collector friend that I gave one of the YV-137Cs used to beg me to sell one of my -135Cs to him. My answer always was: Those models are priceless, if I was willing to part with one of them, I would just hand it to you.

---------------------------------------------------------

On a different angle: While the conversation has been pretty balanced here, it is a sensitive topic. On Facebook, most of the replies have been a notch up on the passion level. I think if MAF is to really become "Your friendly model airplane forum" is best to stay away from these kinds of discussions.

None of us have the right to tell each other how to spend our money, and collectors that for whatever reason pay inflated prices for a particular model should feel free to participate here and not feel animosity toward them.

I think at the end of the day market dynamics usually work pretty well, and even think that overpaying once or twice for a model can be part of a collector's learning journey in this hobby. That's not to say that there aren't people that operate under the philosophy that they can get whatever they want in life with the right amount of money, but I think those are far and few in between, and threads like this won't make them change their behavior anyway.

 

[Purpleplane]

This is an excellent example of what I also think Adrian. We all have seen those models that go for $400 on eBay, I think some sellers either mistakenly think that they can get rich by selling all their sold-out models at those prices, or some might have been frustrated after being on the other side of the fence many times and want to turn - force - things in their favor.

I have often stated when I talk about my beginnings in the hobby, how bitter of an experience it was to find that most Viasa models I wanted were the subjects of insane bidding wars on eBay (and these were healthy bidding wars, with low starting prices). So when Aeroclassics released YV-134C and YV-137C about ten years ago I remember my evil side took over and I said "aha! not gonna happen to me again!" and I bought three examples of YV-137C with the initial intention of eventually getting some money out of them. But in the end, my good side won and I ended up giving away the two extra models to two very good friends (another collector from Venezuela, and the flight instructor that got through me my PPL course. The latter wasn't a collector, but I think he understood that the model represented how much I appreciated his help in getting my PPL).

I have two copies of YV-135C, and I'd get another one if I could find one at a sensible price. The same collector friend that I gave one of the YV-137Cs used to beg me to sell one of my -135Cs to him. My answer always was: Those models are priceless, if I was willing to part with one of them, I would just hand it to you.

---------------------------------------------------------

On a different angle: While the conversation has been pretty balanced here, it is a sensitive topic. On Facebook, most of the replies have been a notch up on the passion level. I think if MAF is to really become "Your friendly model airplane forum" is best to stay away from these kinds of discussions.

None of us have the right to tell each other how to spend our money, and collectors that for whatever reason pay inflated prices for a particular model should feel free to participate here and not feel animosity toward them.

I think at the end of the day market dynamics usually work pretty well, and even think that overpaying once or twice for a model can be part of a collector's learning journey in this hobby. That's not to say that there aren't people that operate under the philosophy that they can get whatever they want in life with the right amount of money, but I think those are far and few in between, and threads like this won't make them change their behavior anyway.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[JJ Skippy]

This is an excellent example of what I also think Adrian. We all have seen those models that go for $400 on eBay, I think some sellers either mistakenly think that they can get rich by selling all their sold-out models at those prices, or some might have been frustrated after being on the other side of the fence many times and want to turn - force - things in their favor.

I have often stated when I talk about my beginnings in the hobby, how bitter of an experience it was to find that most Viasa models I wanted were the subjects of insane bidding wars on eBay (and these were healthy bidding wars, with low starting prices). So when Aeroclassics released YV-134C and YV-137C about ten years ago I remember my evil side took over and I said "aha! not gonna happen to me again!" and I bought three examples of YV-137C with the initial intention of eventually getting some money out of them. But in the end, my good side won and I ended up giving away the two extra models to two very good friends (another collector from Venezuela, and the flight instructor that got through me my PPL course. The latter wasn't a collector, but I think he understood that the model represented how much I appreciated his help in getting my PPL).

I have two copies of YV-135C, and I'd get another one if I could find one at a sensible price. The same collector friend that I gave one of the YV-137Cs used to beg me to sell one of my -135Cs to him. My answer always was: Those models are priceless, if I was willing to part with one of them, I would just hand it to you.

---------------------------------------------------------

On a different angle: While the conversation has been pretty balanced here, it is a sensitive topic. On Facebook, most of the replies have been a notch up on the passion level. I think if MAF is to really become "Your friendly model airplane forum" is best to stay away from these kinds of discussions.

None of us have the right to tell each other how to spend our money, and collectors that for whatever reason pay inflated prices for a particular model should feel free to participate here and not feel animosity toward them.

I think at the end of the day market dynamics usually work pretty well, and even think that overpaying once or twice for a model can be part of a collector's learning journey in this hobby. That's not to say that there aren't people that operate under the philosophy that they can get whatever they want in life with the right amount of money, but I think those are far and few in between, and threads like this won't make them change their behavior anyway.

Good way to put it there at the end. Like I said, I’ve spent more than what I would like to on at least one model and chances are it’ll become more in the future especially in desperate times. Thanks for voicing your thoughts.

 

[OscarBravo992]

This is an excellent example of what I also think Adrian. We all have seen those models that go for $400 on eBay, I think some sellers either mistakenly think that they can get rich by selling all their sold-out models at those prices, or some might have been frustrated after being on the other side of the fence many times and want to turn - force - things in their favor.

I have often stated when I talk about my beginnings in the hobby, how bitter of an experience it was to find that most Viasa models I wanted were the subjects of insane bidding wars on eBay (and these were healthy bidding wars, with low starting prices). So when Aeroclassics released YV-134C and YV-137C about ten years ago I remember my evil side took over and I said "aha! not gonna happen to me again!" and I bought three examples of YV-137C with the initial intention of eventually getting some money out of them. But in the end, my good side won and I ended up giving away the two extra models to two very good friends (another collector from Venezuela, and the flight instructor that got through me my PPL course. The latter wasn't a collector, but I think he understood that the model represented how much I appreciated his help in getting my PPL).

I have two copies of YV-135C, and I'd get another one if I could find one at a sensible price. The same collector friend that I gave one of the YV-137Cs used to beg me to sell one of my -135Cs to him. My answer always was: Those models are priceless, if I was willing to part with one of them, I would just hand it to you.

---------------------------------------------------------

On a different angle: While the conversation has been pretty balanced here, it is a sensitive topic. On Facebook, most of the replies have been a notch up on the passion level. I think if MAF is to really become "Your friendly model airplane forum" is best to stay away from these kinds of discussions.

None of us have the right to tell each other how to spend our money, and collectors that for whatever reason pay inflated prices for a particular model should feel free to participate here and not feel animosity toward them.

I think at the end of the day market dynamics usually work pretty well, and even think that overpaying once or twice for a model can be part of a collector's learning journey in this hobby. That's not to say that there aren't people that operate under the philosophy that they can get whatever they want in life with the right amount of money, but I think those are far and few in between, and threads like this won't make them change their behavior anyway.

Very well said. I couldn't have put it any better myself.

 

[1/400collector]

I myself inly collect retro and classic 747 which mean almost only AC/BB400 which are crazy expensive so you cant really buy from ebay only from collection sales and from members and etc.
I think that the only way to down the price is if BB400 will continue to make more new version of rare and old AC/BB400 747 like they just did with the Air India

 

[OscarBravo992]

I myself inly collect retro and classic 747 which mean almost only AC/BB400 which are crazy expensive so you cant really buy from ebay only from collection sales and from members and etc.
I think that the only way to down the price is if BB400 will continue to make more new version of rare and old AC/BB400 747 like they just did with the Air India

That would be lovely, but with the state BB400 is in at the moment, I am not sure how realistic this is, at least in the short term. I think our best bet on 747 prices coming down is someone releasing a new 747 classic mould (*cough* NG *cough* *cough*).

 

[EQ Planes]

Yeah definitely gets expensive most I have decided to pay for something on eBay in 1:400 was like 95 for a Westjet q400

 

[YesterAirlines]

On a different angle: While the conversation has been pretty balanced here, it is a sensitive topic. On Facebook, most of the replies have been a notch up on the passion level. I think if MAF is to really become "Your friendly model airplane forum" is best to stay away from these kinds of discussions.

None of us have the right to tell each other how to spend our money, and collectors that for whatever reason pay inflated prices for a particular model should feel free to participate here and not feel animosity toward them.

I think at the end of the day market dynamics usually work pretty well, and even think that overpaying once or twice for a model can be part of a collector's learning journey in this hobby. That's not to say that there aren't people that operate under the philosophy that they can get whatever they want in life with the right amount of money, but I think those are far and few in between, and threads like this won't make them change their behavior anyway.

I disagree with this sentiment. Being friendly doesn't mean self-censoring, ignoring important topics and not being able to share an opinion - it means accepting that there are different opinions and being respectful. I do not want anyone to stay away from discussion topics anywhere ever. This is the sort of awful behaviour which is prevalent at DAC whereby people don't even bring up topics because they know what will happen if they do.

It's not about telling people about how to spend their money it is about providing insight and balance and not normalising behaviour, which is bad for individuals and the hobby. People who act against the interests of the hobby should not be welcome and should be called out. It is in my opinion cowardly to self-censor in the face of bullying or what in this case is predatory pricing.

Incidentally I would disagree that market dynamics usually work pretty well too - left unchecked, as they so often are, they have been a disaster for the environment and individuals globally.

 

[Purpleplane]

I disagree with this sentiment. Being friendly doesn't mean self-censoring, ignoring important topics and not being able to share an opinion - it means accepting that there are different opinions and being respectful. I do not want anyone to stay away from discussion topics anywhere ever. This is the sort of awful behaviour which is prevalent at DAC whereby people don't even bring up topics because they know what will happen if they do.

It's not about telling people about how to spend their money it is about providing insight and balance and not normalising behaviour, which is bad for individuals and the hobby. People who act against the interests of the hobby should not be welcome and should be called out. It is in my opinion cowardly to self-censor in the face of bullying or what in this case is predatory pricing.

Incidentally I would disagree that market dynamics usually work pretty well too - left unchecked, as they so often are, they have been a disaster for the environment and individuals globally.

I agree with you Richard. It's about being respectful of differing opinions without bullying or boorish behavior.

 

[Purpleplane]

With everything being said on this topic. I have my limits on how much I personally will pay for a model...doesn't matter how much I want it.

 

[YesterAirlines]

With everything being said on this topic. I have my limits on how much I personally will pay for a model...doesn't matter how much I want it.

Yeah. People can pay whatever they like - that is their personal choice but they should at least know what is fair. People selling at ludicrous prices are the problem and while I don't believe in paying huge sums for a model I understand why an individual might do so from time to time. However there are pricing levels that are incredible and when you're paying $100 for a Gemini Aloha 737 dating from 2002 that is way beyond incredible.

 

[Barison82]

That's it. It's not about telling anybody what to do - it's calling out certain behaviours that are harmful to the hobby. Manipulation of the market by the hoarding of models to flip at extortionate prices is one of them. How is it fair that a collector can't buy a new release at MSRP because of this? At the same time any collector who has paid a premium for their models shouldn't have to feel ashamed about it either - it's not a witch-hunt. But for hell's sake, if we just sit tight and not say anything on this then what's the point.

 

[Purpleplane]

That's it. It's not about telling anybody what to do - it's calling out certain behaviours that are harmful to the hobby. Manipulation of the market by the hoarding of models to flip at extortionate prices is one of them. How is it fair that a collector can't buy a new release at MSRP because of this? At the same time any collector who has paid a premium for their models shouldn't have to feel ashamed about it either - it's not a witch-hunt. But for hell's sake, if we just sit tight and not say anything on this then what's the point.

Exactly. Thank you. I couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[Jazajia]

I disagree with this sentiment. Being friendly doesn't mean self-censoring, ignoring important topics and not being able to share an opinion - it means accepting that there are different opinions and being respectful. I do not want anyone to stay away from discussion topics anywhere ever. This is the sort of awful behaviour which is prevalent at DAC whereby people don't even bring up topics because they know what will happen if they do.

It's not about telling people about how to spend their money it is about providing insight and balance and not normalising behaviour, which is bad for individuals and the hobby. People who act against the interests of the hobby should not be welcome and should be called out. It is in my opinion cowardly to self-censor in the face of bullying or what in this case is predatory pricing.

Incidentally I would disagree that market dynamics usually work pretty well too - left unchecked, as they so often are, they have been a disaster for the environment and individuals globally.

Richard, I do agree with the fact that the seconds market is out of control, and has been for as long as I can remember. Case in point, do an eBay search of "YV-135C" and right now there are two models listed, one from the UK and one in the U.S. While you are focusing more on that new brick-and-mortar store from Seattle (which honestly, my naive self doesn't understand why you don't want to mention their name) I think those two YV-135C listed on eBay right now fit right in on the pricing practices you are condemning.

So from that angle, I am with you. The problem that I see with these kinds of discussions is that they can quickly become polarized, and usually both sides will have very valid points. Allow me, there is another store, from which I have gotten the majority of my models I should point out, that is located in California and well known for its collection sales. This store has had a Cathay Pacific 777 listed for $500 for a while, arguing that it is a rare sample. There are a number of other examples of depressing price practices floating around. So, based on this I personally find it unfair that the focus of the discussion is on the new store from Seattle.

I have no association with the store from Seattle, but I don't like seeing these discussions in which someone or something is unfairly singled out because it could affect me in the future.

Also, in the MAF intro video, you guys mentioned that criticism of models was not a personal attack on individual collectors, and while I know this is true, I also think that any collector who happens to overpay for any of those models that you have listed on the opening post can't be blamed for not feeling welcomed here.

How about if you address this issue in a different way. For example, why not create a post aimed at new collectors and explain to them why they should not pay those prices for those models? Maybe show them that the same model, or a better version of it, can be found at other stores at more reasonable prices, etc. If anything this could also help the offending store to price their models more in line with reality.

As you said, the store in question has recently branched out to 1:400, so they likely don't have a whole lot of experience with the pricing of second-hand models. I am not too familiar with the market for many of the models you listed as examples, I can see some are definitely over-priced, but only one or two seem outrageous to me. The GJ AA 757 is one of them given the fact that NG themselves produced a re-run of their much superior version that can still be found in some places. I doubt that store in Seattle is really counting on an unsuspecting soul to buy that old GJ AA 75 for $90, I'm more inclined to believe that it is just ignorance, and that market dynamics will eventually show them that it is just too expensive.

I know how these discussions go Richard, and I know you will find a valid argument to refute my point if you choose to do so. So I just want to say that when I compliment your objective work with Yesterday Airlines, I truly mean it. It is just when we get into these more subjective arguments that I have a hard time sympathizing.

 

[YesterAirlines]

How about if you address this issue in a different way. For example, why not create a post aimed at new collectors and explain to them why they should not pay those prices for those models? Maybe show them that the same model, or a better version of it, can be found at other stores at more reasonable prices, etc. If anything this could also help the offending store to price their models more in line with reality.

As you said, the store in question has recently branched out to 1:400, so they likely don't have a whole lot of experience with the pricing of second-hand models. I am not too familiar with the market for many of the models you listed as examples, I can see some are definitely over-priced, but only one or two seem outrageous to me. The GJ AA 757 is one of them given the fact that NG themselves produced a re-run of their much superior version that can still be found in some places. I doubt that store in Seattle is really counting on an unsuspecting soul to buy that old GJ AA 75 for $90, I'm more inclined to believe that it is just ignorance, and that market dynamics will eventually show them that it is just too expensive.

I know how these discussions go Richard, and I know you will find a valid argument to refute my point if you choose to do so. So I just want to say that when I compliment your objective work with Yesterday Airlines, I truly mean it. It is just when we get into these more subjective arguments that I have a hard time sympathizing.

To be honest this was something of a kneejerk post based on me having to deal with that store when he asked to join my 400id FB group. If I wanted to make a massive thing out of it I definitely could go down the line you say but it's a bigger job than I intended and I want to hear people's views not patronise them with mine (not today at least )

The reason I didn't name the store was because their likely to get seriously shitty if I did. He wasn't thrilled with me pointing out to him that his prices were outrageous, although he was civil. I know how Americans always keep it polite but don't mean it . I spoke with him about why his prices were so high and he said he was basing them off of ebay sales results, which is a bad way to do it for a retail store since a) that is an auction and b) it is confirmation bias as it doesn't tell you what didn't sell. It certainly isn't ignorance on his part and I might also say that I know he is a friend of AK who always wants to keep the prices high too so I can easily add 2+2 and make 5 here. I also know he is in the 2nd hand Lego market, which is also crazy, so has form for this kind of thing.

In terms of Waffle he sometimes actively takes the mickey with a couple of prices - usually to make a point, but he has and continues to be a shining light of fair pricing with his collection sales. People may not like him personally but he is easily the best and cheapest place to buy 2nd hand models globally.

I know also some models have always been expensive (especially Big Bird and Aeroclassics) and certain airlines like Varig are more expensive than others but these are common as muck early Geminis. They aren't even very good models by today's standards!

I appreciate you like my work mate and I honestly appreciate yours too. I love your models and website and you are a valued member of the community, but I am a fighter and where I see people acting poorly or lying (I certainly don't mean you there by the way) I want to speak up and I will continue to do so.

 

[Jazajia]

To be honest this was something of a kneejerk post based on me having to deal with that store when he asked to join my 400id FB group. If I wanted to make a massive thing out of it I definitely could go down the line you say but it's a bigger job than I intended and I want to hear people's views not patronise them with mine (not today at least )

The reason I didn't name the store was because their likely to get seriously shitty if I did. He wasn't thrilled with me pointing out to him that his prices were outrageous, although he was civil. I know how Americans always keep it polite but don't mean it . I spoke with him about why his prices were so high and he said he was basing them off of ebay sales results, which is a bad way to do it for a retail store since a) that is an auction and b) it is confirmation bias as it doesn't tell you what didn't sell. It certainly isn't ignorance on his part and I might also say that I know he is a friend of AK who always wants to keep the prices high too so I can easily add 2+2 and make 5 here. I also know he is in the 2nd hand Lego market, which is also crazy, so has form for this kind of thing.

In terms of Waffle he sometimes actively takes the mickey with a couple of prices - usually to make a point, but he has and continues to be a shining light of fair pricing with his collection sales. People may not like him personally but he is easily the best and cheapest place to buy 2nd hand models globally.

I know also some models have always been expensive (especially Big Bird and Aeroclassics) and certain airlines like Varig are more expensive than others but these are common as muck early Geminis. They aren't even very good models by today's standards!

I appreciate you like my work mate and I honestly appreciate yours too. I love your models and website and you are a valued member of the community, but I am a fighter and where I see people acting poorly or lying (I certainly don't mean you there by the way) I want to speak up and I will continue to do so.

Well, that clears up a lot. Now I understand this is a personal problem that does not concern me, and I have no problem staying out of it. Thanks for the kind words

 

[YesterAirlines]

Well, that clears up a lot. Now I understand this is a personal problem that does not concern me, and I have no problem staying out of it. Thanks for the kind words

It's not a personal problem - I haven't got an issue with the guy personally and the fact he's friends with AK merely illustrates his character. I was merely explaining why it came up. It is simply the truth that this store is selling at incredible prices.

He is far from alone in that, which is another reason why I didn't say his store by name. I see others doing the same - often without even being proper stores.

I'm not into vendettas. This is a worthwhile topic for discussion.

 

[Steinar]

This is not a sellers problem. Blame the buyers. Why in hell pay for an overpriced model? Period!

 

[Purpleplane]

This is not a sellers problem. Blame the buyers. Why in hell pay for an overpriced model? Period!

My thoughts exactly. Doesn't matter how bad I want the model, if it's a ridiculous price, I'm keeping my money.

 

[FunnyDrivr]

Yeah definitely gets expensive most I have decided to pay for something on eBay in 1:400 was like 95 for a Westjet q400

WestJet Q400s are expensive models I have one myself and I don't ever plan on selling it for that reason