JC / Gemini / Phoenix / Panda / AV400 & AC … future?

JC already has their unique niche in interactives, so they'll likely double down on those in an attempt to differentiate themselves.

AV400 will have to target holes in NG's catalog to stay relevant; currently NG does almost everything they do, just better. An A300/A310, DC10 or even their upcoming 777X would all be decent options. Alternatively, they may be able to get by catering to Singapore and modern Cathay collectors, who NG seems to have blacklisted for some reason:)

I don't see anyone else changing much, other than flooding the market with mediocre alternatives to chip away at NG's sales.
sorry but may you be more specific on the
Singapore and modern Cathay collectors, who NG seems to have blacklisted for some reason
As I don't feel that NG has blacklisted SIA since they've done the a330 and 787 and 350 in the past. and more recently Scoot 787 as well.
 
To me it comes down to what are they willing to invest? That could mean any number of things. Hiring some more people, giving them more/better training, upgrading your facilities or equipment, etc.

Obviously it could mean investing in creating their own new molds, or if they use old molds, will they invest in updating or refining them? There's no reason to still be releasing cradle molds in 2023, for instance.

If the answers are that they're not going to do any of that and just hope that NG collapses under its own weight one day, then yeah NG is going to keep eating into everyone else's market shares as their mold catalog continues to grow. I hope the other companies do invest because that competition is ultimately good for us as customers, but I'm not holding my breath.
 
I really wonder if there is a future for AC. I mean they have serious quality issues in all areas. Maybe they are the only manufacture who is willing to release some classics prop liners but can you life from that? I don't believe they are selling quite well. Their stocks are full, at least on their website and the aviation megastore.
 
The market for them is declining as the number of people who have experience with these old aircraft is going down too unfortunately. And most of the popular aircraft have already been made, so seeing someone else produce them as much as Aeroclassics is highly unlikely. Very sad though, as people like me have zero interest in A350s and 787s. Douglas props and old Boeing jets is what I want.
 
I really wonder if there is a future for AC. I mean they have serious quality issues in all areas. Maybe they are the only manufacture who is willing to release some classics prop liners but can you life from that? I don't believe they are selling quite well. Their stocks are full, at least on their website and the aviation megastore.
And having a owner who can't take any criticism and calls people names and does nothing to improve the quality of his products is not helping.
 
Living in Hong Kong and has access with the mainland China collector's view, I would like to share some opinions on different brands and the future of them.

1) Phoenix​

Contray to the general views shared by many NA/Europe collectors that PH's mould catalog seems to be the most uncompetitive in the market. (Lack of new types, struggle to keep up to competitors on many aspects - 777 engines/A330&340 nose gear door/787 wingflex etc) Chinese collectors are generally loving PH offerings to the point that they despise everybody else in the market and just stick with PH till the end of the world. People there would made claims such as PH 787 wingflex is recreating one inflight and suggesting that the wing's curvature is correct while teasing JC and NG's 787 as rubbish and AV400 should just destroy their 787 given the hideous quality. They also said things like PH 350 has an accurate nose form whereas AV400's effort are trash as suggested by light reflections (I would explain it later), PH 737max are the best in market etc.😓 It is only the 747s that even Chinese PH fanboy collectors admit is terrible.:p

With these fanboys that buys models on a regular basis (Almost everything from PH can be gobbled up by China's PH collectors - regardless of how awful QC are), I don't see how PH won't stay in business - also no reason for PH to improve when their customer base believe their mould are "The most accurate":whistle::whistle:

2) JC Wings/Gemini​

JC Wings​

JC Wings are generally seen as an inferior alternative to PH and Chinese collectors are no shy on their despise to them. They claimed JC's widebodies in general are awful when compared to PH (Though they do admit JC's regional airliners such as Dash 8s are great) with improper shapes and terrible paint quality. (PH's lacquer do looks great when compared to JC, but do PH these days still apply lacquer to their products?:unsure::unsure:)

JC would likely be reckoned for their desire to try to tweak their castings for new suprises (Interactice freighters, flap down aircrafts etc), I ain't that sure if they could survive in the long run though😓 Price of JC these days are rather embarrassing as it just sit in a weird spot where it's not low enough to compete with AV400 on the lower end market, but also not high enough to be that "Premium" like GJ, AC and PH. But I think JC would probably stay afloat with their huge catalog covering almost everything.

Gemini Jets​

GJ, whom shares JC casting, are even more harshly criticised in China given the pricepoint - just like in the West where we all like to criticise GJ's price.;);) They tease that GJ, with their expensive pricetag, must have producted the MOST accurate rendition with license obtained.:p:p(Sorry for the subtle satire)

If GJ stays like this, I see GJ on the path to failure on B2C market - overpriced products, unloved by almost every consumer, lack of manufacturing ability... literally debuffs as a manufacturer:whistle: Yet they would probably still live on as a brand that collab with airlines on producing official merchandises - like Dragon towards the end of DW brand that solely manufacture airline models for airline use.

Heard that there are friction between GJ and JC, mostly surrounding on issues regarding release set. JC wants to cater the western market more while GJ are constantly blocking what JC wants to make while sticking with their using releases of EK and US6:p GJ fear new release would destroy the value of their own past products;)

3) NG models​

Opinions on NG in China are rather mixed, but given most collectors are loving PH, NG are often despised by them - just like JC. They admit some NG products such as 757-200 are rather decent, but they claimed NG's business strategy are "Evil" while mould quality are rather lacking and uncompetitive. They often moan how NG stuck with specific release patterns that they don't like and I feel like they went a bit too much. For example they harshly criticise NG for poor aircraft choice on the China Eastern Yunan "Peacock" 73H pair - one coincide with Panda's offering(B-1788) while the other one(B-1791) is the aircraft involved in MU5735. They claimed such release are a way to cause huge deflation to Panda's 73H B-1788 price and the choice of B-1791 upset the victim families. :confused: I dunno.... Oh and they usually will still buy them despite their hatred online:p:p Maybe like an old saying"口嫌體正直"(Claim to be hating, but in reality loving it):p:p:p

I feel like NG is in an aggresive expansion spree, but who knows when will people stop feeling the freshness from NG like we do today? Maybe by then NG will go burst like old Witty, or come out of it and become more JC-like in terms of mould owned?:unsure: I don't really sure.

4) AV400​

AV400 are so cheap to the point that many young collectors start from buying ther products. AV build up quite a fanbase within the young and would share their despise towards other brands - especially PH. AV400 collectors and PH collectors just hate each other so much that dogfights between them are commonplace - even more heated than AK vs Richard LOL. AV400 even openly shame PH to justify their products while PH fans frequently said AV400 products are so rubbish that they should have just destroy the mould and fold up the business altogether.:censored:

If AV400 stick with the strategy of undercutting competitors, I don't see how they would get themselves out of business given the large low-end market. It's just that the brand just don't feels "Premium" and would have hard time to upgrade brand image should thy want to.

5)Aeroclassics​

God knows what AK will release:p It feels more like AK's playground than other else. The packaging are also really old-schooled. (Not a bad thing for staying consistent, but just feeling a bit dated;))

I am a bit torn on this one, it seems like the brand now solely relies on AK's interest - and god knows how long would AK be able to manage the brand he own. I'm a bit pessimistic on AC - if AK is lost, then the brand would probably lose it's focus:confused::confused:

6) PandaModels​

Who knows when will they come out with releases. They should find a tarot to see how they could break up that bad with their previous partners.:rolleyes:Mould are generally decent with none feels particularly weak - it's just that the root for some mould (A320 family/A330) are rather sketchy:confused::confused:

I dunno how to comment on this brand - they seems to be totally fine for suspending operations for some time, then return out of nowhere to make some release before returning to hiatus.:whistle::whistle:
 
Chinese collectors are generally loving PH offerings to the point that they despise everybody else in the market and just stick with PH till the end of the world.
hahahahah so true and one common argument is that PH holds its value better in the resale market, and ppl are willing to pay premium for PH on resale market for no reasons. despite the fact that PH always has price discrimination (like some 20-30% higher) towards mainland markets, while other bands rather keep an universal price tag.
I myself like KG3036 has been in both parts of the collector's world and i can assure everything he said is accurate if not more accurate.
especially the part involving AV and PH, i would say it's rather toxic in endless pointing at each other's face and try to overpower the other brand.
the distinct love and hate towards one brand and another are something beyond reasons.
 
I don't doubt what you're saying about Chinese viewpoints is true. From what I've seen collectors there are aggressively loyal to brands and quite unreasonable!

An important thing to bear in mind is that several of the principles of these brands are getting quite old and don't have clear successors. Sanry at Phoenix isn't young and everything I have heard suggests they will not make new moulds and have had financial difficulties. Their pivot this year, partly coming from collector feedback, and partly to avoid direct competition with NG it seems may save them for the medium term.

JC Wings makes a lot of models for a lot of people but Johan is approaching retirement age and it is obvious the business without him is poorly run. The deal with Gemini is up in a few years and it'll be interesting to see whether it is renewed. Without GJ JC could really do some impressive things but that assumes they actually care enough and can be well enough organised. Their recent widebody moulds have been excellent. Their narrowbodies a lot less so.

Gemini aren't dependent on China so will be fine. They have the best PR and plenty of Americans who will buy them regardless of what they do. The loss of the JC partnership though would presumably be massive.

NG aren't reliant on the Chinese market so probably don't care that much. Whether they are making any money or not is hard to say but they clearly have their sights set on being the biggest and best and are comfortably achieving that at the moment. Perhaps they will overdo it and go under - who knows?

AV400 are obviously making some really good models but they are at the whim of the IF factory and not everything they make is golden.

Aeroclassics without AK is unthinkable. If he retires then the company is probably gone unless his factory manager can takeover part of it, which is doubtful.

Panda seem back on the expansion pathway. They appear to be making decent $ from retailer exclusives.


The suggestion that Phoenix has better moulds and quality than anyone else is laughable really but what can you do. People can believe what they want to believe. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink...
 
Living in Hong Kong and has access with the mainland China collector's view, I would like to share some opinions on different brands and the future of them.

1) Phoenix​

Contray to the general views shared by many NA/Europe collectors that PH's mould catalog seems to be the most uncompetitive in the market. (Lack of new types, struggle to keep up to competitors on many aspects - 777 engines/A330&340 nose gear door/787 wingflex etc) Chinese collectors are generally loving PH offerings to the point that they despise everybody else in the market and just stick with PH till the end of the world. People there would made claims such as PH 787 wingflex is recreating one inflight and suggesting that the wing's curvature is correct while teasing JC and NG's 787 as rubbish and AV400 should just destroy their 787 given the hideous quality. They also said things like PH 350 has an accurate nose form whereas AV400's effort are trash as suggested by light reflections (I would explain it later), PH 737max are the best in market etc.😓 It is only the 747s that even Chinese PH fanboy collectors admit is terrible.:p

With these fanboys that buys models on a regular basis (Almost everything from PH can be gobbled up by China's PH collectors - regardless of how awful QC are), I don't see how PH won't stay in business - also no reason for PH to improve when their customer base believe their mould are "The most accurate":whistle::whistle:

2) JC Wings/Gemini​

JC Wings​

JC Wings are generally seen as an inferior alternative to PH and Chinese collectors are no shy on their despise to them. They claimed JC's widebodies in general are awful when compared to PH (Though they do admit JC's regional airliners such as Dash 8s are great) with improper shapes and terrible paint quality. (PH's lacquer do looks great when compared to JC, but do PH these days still apply lacquer to their products?:unsure::unsure:)

JC would likely be reckoned for their desire to try to tweak their castings for new suprises (Interactice freighters, flap down aircrafts etc), I ain't that sure if they could survive in the long run though😓 Price of JC these days are rather embarrassing as it just sit in a weird spot where it's not low enough to compete with AV400 on the lower end market, but also not high enough to be that "Premium" like GJ, AC and PH. But I think JC would probably stay afloat with their huge catalog covering almost everything.

Gemini Jets​

GJ, whom shares JC casting, are even more harshly criticised in China given the pricepoint - just like in the West where we all like to criticise GJ's price.;);) They tease that GJ, with their expensive pricetag, must have producted the MOST accurate rendition with license obtained.:p:p(Sorry for the subtle satire)

If GJ stays like this, I see GJ on the path to failure on B2C market - overpriced products, unloved by almost every consumer, lack of manufacturing ability... literally debuffs as a manufacturer:whistle: Yet they would probably still live on as a brand that collab with airlines on producing official merchandises - like Dragon towards the end of DW brand that solely manufacture airline models for airline use.

Heard that there are friction between GJ and JC, mostly surrounding on issues regarding release set. JC wants to cater the western market more while GJ are constantly blocking what JC wants to make while sticking with their using releases of EK and US6:p GJ fear new release would destroy the value of their own past products;)

3) NG models​

Opinions on NG in China are rather mixed, but given most collectors are loving PH, NG are often despised by them - just like JC. They admit some NG products such as 757-200 are rather decent, but they claimed NG's business strategy are "Evil" while mould quality are rather lacking and uncompetitive. They often moan how NG stuck with specific release patterns that they don't like and I feel like they went a bit too much. For example they harshly criticise NG for poor aircraft choice on the China Eastern Yunan "Peacock" 73H pair - one coincide with Panda's offering(B-1788) while the other one(B-1791) is the aircraft involved in MU5735. They claimed such release are a way to cause huge deflation to Panda's 73H B-1788 price and the choice of B-1791 upset the victim families. :confused: I dunno.... Oh and they usually will still buy them despite their hatred online:p:p Maybe like an old saying"口嫌體正直"(Claim to be hating, but in reality loving it):p:p:p

I feel like NG is in an aggresive expansion spree, but who knows when will people stop feeling the freshness from NG like we do today? Maybe by then NG will go burst like old Witty, or come out of it and become more JC-like in terms of mould owned?:unsure: I don't really sure.

4) AV400​

AV400 are so cheap to the point that many young collectors start from buying ther products. AV build up quite a fanbase within the young and would share their despise towards other brands - especially PH. AV400 collectors and PH collectors just hate each other so much that dogfights between them are commonplace - even more heated than AK vs Richard LOL. AV400 even openly shame PH to justify their products while PH fans frequently said AV400 products are so rubbish that they should have just destroy the mould and fold up the business altogether.:censored:

If AV400 stick with the strategy of undercutting competitors, I don't see how they would get themselves out of business given the large low-end market. It's just that the brand just don't feels "Premium" and would have hard time to upgrade brand image should thy want to.

5)Aeroclassics​

God knows what AK will release:p It feels more like AK's playground than other else. The packaging are also really old-schooled. (Not a bad thing for staying consistent, but just feeling a bit dated;))

I am a bit torn on this one, it seems like the brand now solely relies on AK's interest - and god knows how long would AK be able to manage the brand he own. I'm a bit pessimistic on AC - if AK is lost, then the brand would probably lose it's focus:confused::confused:

6) PandaModels​

Who knows when will they come out with releases. They should find a tarot to see how they could break up that bad with their previous partners.:rolleyes:Mould are generally decent with none feels particularly weak - it's just that the root for some mould (A320 family/A330) are rather sketchy:confused::confused:

I dunno how to comment on this brand - they seems to be totally fine for suspending operations for some time, then return out of nowhere to make some release before returning to hiatus.:whistle::whistle:
That read like a fantasy novel lol. AV400 as a "budget" brand is hilarious, the collectorate outside China places them smack on the "premium" list. And with neither Western nor Chinese collectors being pleased with NG's China releases, how about they start covering some other Asian majors more?😉
 
An important thing to bear in mind is that several of the principles of these brands are getting quite old and don't have clear successors.
Yikes - that sound awful :confused: :confused:
Sanry at Phoenix isn't young and everything I have heard suggests they will not make new moulds and have had financial difficulties. Their pivot this year, partly coming from collector feedback, and partly to avoid direct competition with NG it seems may save them for the medium term.
Could sense it - it has been quite some years since PH actually started developing a new mould from scratch, and from what I heard PH is also reducing it's release figures by controlling the amount produced at a rather small scale of a few hundred each. They are definitely not the PH in their prime

Given their history, I think they probably outdone themselves a lot from the "Tucanoline" days and that's quite a feat. - but I still ain't that please with their 747s flooding the market:rolleyes:
JC Wings makes a lot of models for a lot of people but Johan is approaching retirement age and it is obvious the business without him is poorly run. The deal with Gemini is up in a few years and it'll be interesting to see whether it is renewed. Without GJ JC could really do some impressive things but that assumes they actually care enough and can be well enough organised. Their recent widebody moulds have been excellent. Their narrowbodies a lot less so.

Gemini aren't dependent on China so will be fine. They have the best PR and plenty of Americans who will buy them regardless of what they do. The loss of the JC partnership though would presumably be massive.
I consider they would be in those love-hate relationship that would not likely to part ways - like an old couple.:p

GJ these days are so heavily reliant on JC's manufacturing plant that building a separate production facility for GJ from scratch would probably cost an astronomical sum. Don't forget currently it's JC who take care of manufacturing - which can be costly and time consuming. What GJ do today is just take care of the IP they gathered and stocking of their products - which would probably be a fraction of running a manufacturing facility. The sum just doesn't sound right for them.

JC side are also heavily reliant on GJ's huge orders to remain afloat - but that could also be a disguise as it seems JC's plant are rather preoccupied by GJ products instead of their own products judging from the recent Sam Chui video.(There's a shot at the box filled with aircrafts that fail QC test - and the contents are mostly GJ's Emirates - I only spot a few JC products, mostly 77W and 332F) They might be able to shine with the freedom to pursue whatever they what if they breakup with GJ, but I wonder how long can JC stay afloat without GJ supporting their facility.
NG aren't reliant on the Chinese market so probably don't care that much. Whether they are making any money or not is hard to say but they clearly have their sights set on being the biggest and best and are comfortably achieving that at the moment. Perhaps they will overdo it and go under - who knows?
Heard that the group behind NG is a Chinese model shop at Guangzhou, but I ain't that sure about it:whistle: They has the vision - no doubt, but will they overdo themselves? Only time will tell - but by now I enjoy watching them release at quick pace.:whistle::whistle:
AV400 are obviously making some really good models but they are at the whim of the IF factory and not everything they make is golden.
They are making decent products - but given their price I do sense limitations on some details sometimes. The aerials are excessively oversize and the mould generally screams compromises on cost over actually paying attention on small details.
Aeroclassics without AK is unthinkable. If he retires then the company is probably gone unless his factory manager can takeover part of it, which is doubtful.
Yep - totally agree. I heard (and witness) QC on Aeroclassics these days are rather lackluster from the local retailer that still maintain ties with AK and sell firsthand AC - QC on most products - especially the A330/A340s are really like roulette during the Covid times. They are more pleased on the products from the more recent post-Covid times.

P.s Heard that AK and the previous AC factory Kangkai parted ways in quite an embarassing way, do you have any insight to it?
Panda seem back on the expansion pathway. They appear to be making decent $ from retailer exclusives.
Oh really? Many local retailers here in HK these days are reluctant to sell Pandas as they feel their product are rather uncompetitive and finding hard times trying to sell them...:confused: Maybe because their release are not too close to the taste of HK collectors LOL.
 
That read like a fantasy novel lol. AV400 as a "budget" brand is hilarious, the collectorate outside China places them smack on the "premium" list.
AV400 are definitely on the cheap side - hence why they're consider budgeted
At Taobao(China's Amazon - but with even more shops and even more cutthroat discounts), an AV400 77W would probably just cost around¥250 ($34.7 USD) while JC would probably cost¥300 ($41.7 USD), Phoenix would likely cost around¥400 ($55.6 USD), NG realistically at around ¥430 ($59.8 USD) and GJ even more.;);) This price difference might explain why Chinese collectors see AV as "budgeted".

Local retailers here at HK once sell AV as low at around $200 HKD ($25.5 USD) (Those are really uncompetitive and not really to the taste of HK collectors, like Transasia Airways A333) - and actually AV400 has to step in as even AV themselves think that's too low! :p
 
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Heard that the group behind NG is a Chinese model shop at Guangzhou, but I ain't that sure about it:whistle: They has the vision - no doubt, but will they overdo themselves? Only time will tell - but by now I enjoy watching them release at quick pace.:whistle::whistle:

You mean Skywings. The store is no longer branded as that - now it is Airmall. There may have been a connection but I don't think they could be the entire reason behind NG. No way they'd have the resources.

P.s Heard that AK and the previous AC factory Kangkai parted ways in quite an embarassing way, do you have any insight to it?

It wasn't a previous factory. Kang Kai is the force behind Panda (or at least was). They were working together and that fell apart. This was way back in 2016 and is the route of AK's hatred towards Panda. Read here for the story at the time: https://www.yesterdaysairlines.com/airline-history-blog/panda-models-pt1-the-story-so-far
 
AV400 are definitely on the cheap side - hence why they're consider budgeted
At Taobao(China's Amazon - but with even more shops and even more cutthroat discounts), an AV400 77W would probably just cost around¥250 ($34.7 USD) while JC would probably cost¥300 ($41.7 USD), Phoenix would likely cost around¥400 ($55.6 USD), NG realistically at around ¥430 ($59.8 USD) and GJ even more.;);) This price difference might explain why Chinese collectors see AV as "budgeted".

Local retailers here at HK once sell AV as low at around $200 HKD ($25.5 USD) (Those are really uncompetitive and not really to the taste of HK collectors, like Transasia Airways A333) - and actually AV400 has to step in as even AV themselves think that's too low! :p

It is interesting that outside China AV400 is priced very differently. In the West Phoenix is cheaper than AV400 by some margin in general. JC is also cheaper than AV400 too.

Of AV400's moulds the A380 is exceptional, the A350, 777-300 and 787s are excellent and only the A330, A330neo are easily surpassed by the competition. So I don't think AV400 are skimping on mould details, however the QC from the factory has been rather poor in recent times.
 
I have been assisting Phoenix since early this year, suggesting more interesting liveries on decent moulds, and sometimes qc check on some models (not all). I'm quite happy with the releases so far, especially the tu154 and LTU A330. Sanry acknowledges that some of Ph moulds are inferior but she just doesn't care. And has no plan to develope a new mould neither. But I have been trying to get them to work on the IL-96-400
 
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